The following is a transcript of a debate that I think sums up the ridiculousness of white guilt fairly well. This started with a post on a friend's Facebook pointing out the hypocrisy of being okay with a show about a tattoo parlor that only employs blacks, and how well that would go if it were a place that only employs whites. I brought up how it goes far further than that with benefits and special interest programs. The context of this conversation, at least from my stand point being is that no person deserves special privileges of ANY kind just because of their race. Doing so is the definition of racism.
Nick Jensen Because only white people can be racist.
You think that's bad? Try starting a scholarship that benefits white people. Or
any group that focuses on bringing whites together for white purposes. Not to
say that I'm in support of that, I think it's ridiculous. But it's ridiculous
for any other race as well.
·
Rebecca I agree! Its so sad.
Nick Jensen God forbid you get attacked by a member
of any minority if you have a drop of caucasion blood in you. Fight back, and
it's a hate crime.
·
Dwight Imagine living a peaceful life for
thousands of years and suddenly you are ripped from your home and stolen away
from your family.. forced onto a ship for 3 months, shackled and living in your
own vomit and feces and watching your friends and family die and get thrown
overboard like trash. Then when and if you reach your destination you are
forced into slavery for the rest of your life and if you don't comply you are
beaten or murdered. Now imagine that for 400 years. That cuts deep. Whites who
expect blacks to "get over it" simply don't understand how truly
horrible those things were. Think about it.. 400 YEARS! Lots of anger and
sadness can be built up in 400 years.
·
Dwight It's not 40 acres and a mule but these
shows and channels and scholarship funds etc. are a form of reparations.. if
you dont think blacks deserve some sort of reparations then you are not
studying American history enough
·
Shaun The blacks have been freed for a very
long time, and whites, american indians, and jews were all slaves and treated
badly, not one nation or race DESERVE, anything. We all have life and get to
live how we want in THIS DAY. It is time to get over it. EVERYBODY! This
generation of blacks, whites, indians etc... were not slaves. The people who
were slaves deserve repaqrations, NOT this generation!
Dwight Not defending it just explaining it...
and it hasn't been that long that blacks were mistreated.. it's not just about
slavery.. my dad got firehosed and attacked by police dogs just 50 years ago..
Shaun and my post wasnt ment to be ugly, but
there are several people no matter what the color or origin that get
misstreated all over the worl. In India women are still slaves today, are they
OWED anything. FREEDOM, and LIFE. Just what everyone else deserves was all i
was trying to say.
Katie Agreed... I just talking about America..
women were also mistreated in America and I think reparations are also being
made for that along with Native Americans.. is it perfect no but its
something... this is still Dwight just using Katies kindle lol
Shaun yes agreed, Anyone who has been hurt or
mistreated Deserves, that was actually my case
Nick Jensen That isn't how it happened. Slavery
covered the entire world, and it was rampant in Africa. Black slaves were
purchased in Africa, by those certainly not innocent in the matter. It was in
America that slavery was abolished. Furthermore, I've never met a single person
that's either owned a slave, or been a slave, so I see no reason for myself or
anyone else not personally guilty to be held accountable.
Nick Jensen My point is that I, nor anyone else owes
reparations just for being the wrong color. For a multitude of reasons. On this
logic, Native Americans owe me reparations, since many kept European slaves. We
didn't invent slavery, and there was no time period in which we were the only
ones guilty. At that time, the whole world was involved of slavery, and we were
among the least of it.
Nick Jensen Oh, and they had anything but a peaceful
life in Africa. What happened in Roots was horribly inaccurate. What happened
was children were born into slavery, and stolen from other tribes in war.
Rebecca My point was not to argue slavery. Or
even the fact that Africa Americans deserve or don't deserve scholarships and
foundations and "special treatment" its the fact that today we are
ALL being oppressed. Not everyone may see it this way , but its true. To tell
me Im racist for not voting for Obama, or making a t.v. show with only white
people. Bringing watermelon to a B.B.Q with black people present. Calling
someone black. This is ignorant. Yes Black people went through 400 yrs of
slavery in America. But what about, Jewish, Irish, indian. My point is people
are way to quick to judge. Way to quick to jump to conclusions. Im sure I've
been judged for this post.
Dwight You have alot of strange feelings Nick..
no one is talking about world slavery.. the question was posed how can there be
a "double standard" for blacks and my point is because me and other
blacks still feel the sting of our ancestors every time we get called nigger..
Roots? really? I'm black in real life.. I don't need Hollywood to tell me
anything about how things were or are I have family and friends to do that
accurately. Tell a woman you know what suffrage felt like or pregnancy feels
like and she'll laugh in your face.. don't pressume that you know the struggle
or the feeling of being black in America even today. If blacks want a channel
or a scholarship to celebrate how far we as a people have come in this country
where's the harm in that? We aren't owed at least that much in your eyes? What
about women only channels and funds and charities.. let's talk about that.. I'm
glad you feel the world is perfect Nick and no one owes anyone anything but
that is a very narrow minded view and simlpy not true
Rebecca Every race at some point has seen. Or is
still seeing slavery. So why work against each other? Why continue to point
fingers, when we could learn and grow from our past.
Nick Jensen So you've been a slave then?
Nick Jensen I never said the world was perfect. Only
said that its ridiculous that I have to be held accountable for the actions of
someone else, particularly when NO race is innocent on the subject.
Dwight And all we're asking for is acceptance..
thats reparations... it doesn't cost you anything Nick
Dwight Sorry Nick I can no longer continue this
conversation.. like it not you have racist tendenncies.. Thanks for the back
and forth but I can see its pointless
Rebecca question was still not answered, or
even adressed. And I believe the above comments are why. We as people cannot
let go of the past. Im just sick of the "double standard" and like I
said before let it go and grow.
Nick Jensen I'm racist? For what? This is the
ridiculous crap that I have to put up with. If I don't accept the blame for
someone else's actions then I'm a racist. That's the biggest load of crap that
I've ever heard. Acceptance? From who? Your gotten the big end of the stick for
how long now? I think you need to look up the definition of racist, because
you're WAY out of line. You want respect? Don't throw out the race card without
good reason. Yeah, racism sucks. But so does being called a racist for no good
reason other than someone not agreeing with your entire world view. All I said
is that I don't owe any race anything. That doesn't make me a racist. If anyone
in this conversation is guilty of that, it's my me. You said it's just that
certain races get certain privileges just for being in that race. But I'm the
racist?
Nick Jensen Rebecca - That's exactly what I'm saying. No,
it's not right that the double standard exists, and as long as it's ignored
from one side, it can never truly die.
Nick Jensen Oh yeah, I'm also racist for voting
against the party that allowed slavery, fought against its abolition, wrote the
Jim Crow laws, and then fought against their repeal. I'm racist for treating
people equally, and not immediately condemning people as guilty of a hate crime
because of their race. I could care less what race someone is. The people that
attacked your grandfather would do far worse to me, seeing as my children are
what they call "halfbreeds". I get it from both ends.
Rebecca Agreed, I have Irish, French and German
in me. Does tha give me the right to point fingers? Because according to
history, Im an immigrant and was in slavery also. Ebut im not im open minded
and realize that the mistakes of my ancestors are just that. And want to grow
as a nation. Not take it down for the past.
Nick Jensen Hard to grow when you refuse to let go
of the past.
Dwight I didn't want to call you racist Nick I
just meant your feelings aren't very unedrstanding thats why I said tendencies.
My father was beaten for being black,when I was 12 I was stabbed for being
black. Have you ever been spit on and called nigger Nick? No I was not a slave
but for you to think I'm free in this country or that black people should feel
like we have "gotten enough already" (something about a fat stick)is
why I think you are narrow minded. I understand oppression is worldwide but
again we are talking about America. I tried to answer why Becky but like I said
without you being black you just can't understand how many all white things
there are even if it's not called White only TV. I only meant to try to
enlighten you not anger you. BTW not voting for Obama isn't racist it's smart
just like the watermelon
Dwight It's not the past Nick that's the part
you're not getting
Rebecca I have to say O have not been spot on
and called a nigger BUT I have been spit on and called racist cracker for not
serving a black lady drinks when she couldn't provide ID. IK how it feels to be
on the other end of the racist card. You of all people should know im not. But
once I get the finger pointed at me because I didn't give a different race
somthing they wanted. I understand being upset about the past, learning,
growing and even gaining strength from it
Rebecca Im not saying not to celebrate the
strengths oF your race. The post was mearly an analogy for every day life.
Nick Jensen No, but I've been called a cracker. That
sucks that that happened, and I would have stood up for him if I could, but to
blame an entire race for the actions of a few is just racist.
Dwight I am not attacking anyone like I said I
was just trying to explain. I would never call you racist Becky I don't think
that at all. This is all I know of Nick so unfortunately my judgement of him is
purely based on these posts. We all need to look forward and be color blind but
until then there is lots of healing to be done
Nick Jensen Why an I narrow minded? Because I don't
think that you should get special treatment for being the right color, and I
shouldn't because I'm the wrong color?
Nick Jensen It is the past. If you want acceptance
from the entire world, it's never going to happen, and it doesn't matter what
race you are. There will always be people that hate you for a multitude of
reasons. There are people that hate me for being white, there are people that
hate me because my children aren't 100% white, there are people that hate me
for being an America, and there are people that hate me for standing up for
treating people equally regardless of race, as you have just demonstrated.
Nick Jensen If you want justice for what happened to
your father, find the guy that did it. It wasn't me, or anyone else that I
know.
Richard I got tagged in. It appears to be a tug
o war going on. There's the racist dudes (from every race) and everyone else
who has to deal with it the best they can. It's a never ending tug o war
between on the subject. Shit, I almost got my ass beat in jail for not being
racist.
Dwight What do you feel like I'm asking you for
Nick? I don't understand your anger? All we want is for whites to be okay with
our differences. Don't isolate my 2 examples like they are the only times in
recent memory that those kinds of things happened . They were examples merely
to illustrate that it wasn't the "past".If you feel oppressed than do
something about as a people like blacks have. No one is stopping you. I don't
know of a time that whites were oppressed in America strictly for being white
but that's not say it didn't happen.
Dwight Please stop citing isolated incidents to
compare a lifetime of racism towards you.
Richard Nick isn't angry, he's a very aggressive
debater. You'll have to take his aggression with a grain of salt.
Richard In his defense where we've grown up u
don't see violent racism. However it does exist. I do agree that it does suck
to be an assumed racist because I'm white, but its the deusche bags that have
made it that way. I understand tho, I have different religious beliefs and I
have to assume that I can't bring it up to most people of a particular belief
because it gets hostile.
Rebecca Dwight, not that im attacking you but
your comments can go both ways. White people want the same things as well. We
as a new generation want peace but, if I were to mae the comments you just made
only opposite on a public wall I would be attacked and calles racist. No Im not
black so I dont know but Im white so I d know. Think about it The American
Indians, and Irish were one of the first races to be oppressed and enslaved in
America. But no one talks about that. We are consumed with what we think is
right but in reality it only hurts AMERICANS in a whole
Richard It's a slow process, but racism is
getting better. It takes everyone expressing dislike towards it to make it
happen. It's one thing for my friends and I to joke about our differences,
making light of it is the beginning to acceptance.
Rebecca Very true Richard. Well said
Dwight I don't mean to isolate other races
plights. I can only speak for what I know. Racism is getting better I agree
Richard. One way of getting better is to allow us to embrace our differences.
Look past the shows and things being for being blacks only and see them as an
indication of how far we've come. 50 years ago these things didn't happen.
Rebecca I do see it that way. Always have. Just
like Im proud of women for comming as far as they have come. I guess my point
will forever be fallen on deaf ears. And will always come back to the subject
at hand.
Dwight I feel the same way Becky
Nick Jensen All I want is for others to stop I
obsessing with the past, and attributing the actions of others to me, and
others fighting against actual racism. I hate to break it to you, but you
aren't the only race being persecuted against by a long shot. People like me
are being accused of horrible crimes for no reason other than being white. And
you're damn right I'm pissed. You just called me a racist because I said that
people should be treated equally regardless of race. I don't care what some
jackass did to your dad. It's irrelevant. I don't care what some jackass did to
anyone. I'm not out there demanding anything be done about the Duke Lacrosse
players that were falsely accused of hate crimes that was all over the news a
few years ago. I'd take a beating and called a bad name any day over having my
name plastered all over the news as a racist monster with no evidence other
than the word of a single stripper. You know what happened at the end of that?
I brief headline showing not guilty, and they moved on. They didn't get to be
famous for being falsely accused, they got famous for being racist monsters.
They got no sympathy.
Nick Jensen What's interesting is that if someone
called me a cracker, nobody cares. Even after you falsely accused me of being a
racist, which is a giant accusation to throw at someone, if someone called you
the n-word on this same thread, I'd come to your defense quicker than I came to
my own.
Nick Jensen People like you keep racism alive.
People like you crying around every corner that you need special treatment. And
one side of your mouth you say that we should be treated equally, on the other
side you say that you should get special treatment. All I'm saying is that
people should be treated the same regardless of race. No race as a whole is
innocent on anything, but it doesn't matter, because I'm not guilty of the sins
of my father, and neither of you. If I were the guy that attacked your father,
I'd deserve to get the crap kicked out of me, but it wasn't me. I've never done
anything remotely close to that. I don't deserve to have to do anything as a
result. I don't have to try to an make up for it, because I didn't do it, and
neither did most. You want respect? Ask to be treated equally. Don't pretend
that you're a victim, when the DOJ is protecting a group that's calling our
citizens to use grenades to kill white babies. Sure, there's racism out there,
and I'm sure that you've received your share of it, but so have I. The
difference is that the racism that I have to deal with is considered socially
acceptable.
Rebecca Powerful Nick. That's what im trying to
say TY the racism that white people deal with IS socially acceptable. And it
shouldn't be. Because no racism is acceptable. In my eyes....
Nick Jensen You want to fight against racism? Stand
up for George Zimmerman. There isn't a shred of evidence that was already proven
to be falsified to suggest that he's guilty, and a mountain of evidence that
shows that he was defending his own life from an aggressor. But because he's
half white, and the other guy was black, he's on trial for murder, and
considered a monster. Then you can say that you stand against racism, when you
stand against it for all sides. Speak out against programs like minority
benefit programs, because they only serve to divide, and further the belief
that an entire race owes another race, rather than the guilty owes the victims.
You call me a racist, yet as I stand against it in all forms, it only seems to
bother you when it goes against your own race. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having
this conversation. I haven't said a thing that would cause you and I to be
treated differently based on race. You have.
Nick Jensen Exactly, Rebecca. I'm incredibly against racism, but if I decide behavior is
acceptable from one race and not from another, then I can't really make that
claim.
Nick Jensen I don't care about black tv. The point
was simply if it were the other way around, there'd be pitchforks involved. If
a tv show is made for a specific audience, who cares? But if it was called
White Ink Crew, and it was advertised as whites only, you can't tell me you
would think that's okay. I actually feel like the word "white" in
this sense is a dirty word, because that's how my generation has been
programmed. If you say "Black Pride", it's applauded. If I say
"White Pride", I'm ran out on a rail. And I have no interest in
declaring anything like that, because I have no interest in causing that
division.
Nick Jensen The greatest social injustice committed
against blacks, (and I'm dead serious, it's an atrocity) is telling them their
whole lives that they won't be allowed to be successful, because the world
hates them. It's a self fulfilling prophecy, because it discourages any attempt
at success, despite it's untruth.
Nick Jensen Oh, and I do things to address the
social problems against whites. Then jackasses call me a racist for it. Point
was proven real quick on this thread. I don't usually resort to name calling,
but when you're called one of the worst names there are out there with
absolutely no basis, it seems like fair game to me.
Dwight Nick you are obviously very young and
ignorant. I don't blame you I blame your upbringing. You are a very angry and
confused young man and I hope you find your way before its too late. Read the
posts Nick. No one denied worldwide oppression or hatred. You might feel right
in your rants but thats all they are.. rants. No real solutions just complaints
that we feel wronged. Your final post is the only relevant one. That is exactly
why black only things exist.. to uplift not segregate. I never said we should all
be equal. I do feel I'm owed something special and obviously you feel you are
too. I understand you can never understand that because you grew up in a non
racist neighborhood.
Dwight BTW I still don't think you're a racist
Nick but you do have racist feelings.. sorry
Nick Jensen I'm confused? You called me a racist
because I believe people should be treated equally regardless of race. I'm not
an angry person at all. But you called me a racist. That tends to piss people
off. I'm not the confused one here.
Nick Jensen Let me get this straight. I fall under
the definition of a racist, but I'm not a racist?
Nick Jensen What are my racist feelings? That race
shouldn't matter? I'm apparently confused, so straighten me out here.
Dwight No you are not a racist.. you are
confused.. YOU ARE NOT A RACIST.. but you do have alot of pent up aggression
towards people trying to make up for a dark part of American history
Nick Jensen And segregation is segregation, plain
and simple. If you separate, that's segregation. Having programs that only one
race is allowed to take advantage of doesn't bring people together.
Nick Jensen It's not American history, it's world
history, and you're trying to blame the whole thing on one race. I have a lot
of pent up aggression against people that hold it against me.
Dwight At this point Nick it's like talking to
a 2 year old... this is where we part ways.. feel free to continue to rant and
I'm sure you'll find support for your beliefs as I will but this is going
nowhere. I feel you're ignorant and you feel I should forget about everything
that has happened to me and my ancestors and move on.. neither on eof those
things is necessarily right but thats where we are so it was very fun debating
with you but we have to agree to disagree.. one thing I think we can agree on is
we have a lot of work to do in this country by every race before anyone will
truly be equal or free
Nick Jensen I'm a 2 year old? Seriously? You've been
crying out about poor you for this whole conversation. You only acknowledge
injustices against your own people, and you have an incorrect understanding of
even that much. You called me a racist (and yes, you most certainly did)
because I said we need to stop giving special treatment based entirely on race.
You've failed to give me any examples that qualify me as such without making up
reasons, like thoughts that I've never expressed. You've told me that
separating and excluding people brings them together. You claim you want to
right injustices, but you only want to right the injustices against people of
your own color. I never said forget, I said move on, and stop pinning it on the
innocent. You expressed a great amount of racism here, I've expressed none.
You've proven that it's okay for you to stand up for the injustices against
blacks, but to racist for me to do so. Who's the two year old here? I've made
point after point after point, you've made none. At least none based on facts.
Are you even aware of all the persecution out there against people other than
blacks? A two year old would only acknowledge wrongs against themselves. If you
do continue here, pick one of the things I said, and address it. Anyone of
them. Tell me why I'm a racist with facts. Tell me why minority programs that
exclude people somehow bring them together. Tell me how accusing me of having
"racist tendencies" is different than calling me a racist. Tell me how
it's relevant that your dad was attacked, but how it's not relevant when white
people get attacked for walking into the wrong neighborhood or alley. Tell me
how I owe you a damn thing, and that includes any form of respect. Tell me what
injustice do you experience that I don't. Pick any one of those things. Tell me
where I'm wrong. You say I'm confused and ignorant, then set me straight.
Otherwise, your words don't meant crap. Lets hear it. I'll let you focus on a
single one of those things without changing subjects.
Dwight It brings blacks together not
people...more ignorance.. I don't understand injustices against my own people?
spoken like a narrow minded white. I am only defending blacks becuase I'm black
I said that in the beginning. I only attemted to answer Beckys original
question not cure world hunger. When you become a black man no
"facts" or "words" are needed. You will never understand
Nick because you are too narrow minded. I would love to get more people in on
this.. can I friend you so we can keep this going tonight? This is too hard to
do at work
Rebecca Just make sure IM not the one getting
attacked in the process.
Dwight I don't mean to attack anyone.. this is
merely a heated discussion.. I feel no anger or animosity towards anyone here..
just good clean debating
Rebecca Ok, the feel free to share my comment
itself.
Dwight Are you okay with that Nick?
Rebecca Hes probably at work right now. He'll
comment when he can.
Dwight ok
Katie Nick let it go Dwight certainly tried
to...ur not black u can't tell Dwight how to feel
Rebecca Hes not telling him how to feel. Katie,
just his opinions on the subject that its ok for other races besides white to
be racist. If the smallest infraction is made. It brings subjects and debates
such as this up. Its a debate. And my question to all of this is how is any of
this ok? How is ok for a black person to tell a white person that they are
racist, when the last thing they are trying to do is be just that. Its ok for a
black comedian to make constant jokes about white people and they think its ok.
But if a white comedian does it most of the black people in the bulding go off
on that comedian after his show. Its not ok either way..... at all. Which is
what this post was trying to get at. I understand that African Americans went
through hell. But it still doesn't give them the right to jump to conclusions that
every white person is racist. Just like it doesn't give white people the right
to assume just cuz you're black you belong in a lower position than me. There
are ignorant comments from both parties here. But there is not one comment made
telling someone how they should feel. just opinions. Just individual thoughts
that have truths on both parts.
Rebecca Still I am judged and looked down on
because Im white. Like I was the one that went over to Africa and enslaved all
those people. My generation your generation and even our fathers generation
have nothing to do with it. But yet the finger is still pointed in our faces. I
understand that the past of slavery in this country was a very sad and ignorant
thing to do or think is ok. But its over and not happening anymore so why are
me and people like me being treated as such. How is that ok? How is that NOT
racist?
Nick Jensen But he can tell me how to feel? I have a
right to stand up for what I see as wrong in the world just as much as anyone
else. This mindset where I owe a debt for being the wrong color is certainly my
business. And that debt includes respect.
Nick Jensen You'll have to forgive me. I don't take
well to being accused of being a racist. Especially when I'm standing against
it. That accusation is made against me constantly, rarely having anything to
back it up. The reason can vary from not voting for Obama, to supporting gun
rights, to supporting fiscal responsibility. None of them make any sense, and
neither did that one.
Katie Oh whatever I wanted to delete my post
as soon as I did it because of this I'm not going to get into it..I understand
what u r saying but it doesn't make it better the original post u made is bound
to piss some black people off including Dwight and please don't defend Nick to
me u don't get to talk to my husband that way and think I'm ok with it that guy
is a dick... I will always be on Dwight's side, But I still love u sis no
matter how u feel about something
Nick Jensen How am I a dick? What have I done other
than defend myself and my points? Your husband called me a racist. I don't get
to stand up against that? Your husband is way out of line here. I know you have
loyalty to him here, but where do you get off calling me a dick for defending
myself?
Dwight Every one uses the comedy line but that
simply is not true.. funny is funny black or white.. I agree whites should have
the same freedoms as blacks but I also feel blacks (not African Americans)
still desereve to feel special in this country because of the past regardless
of how long ago it was.. it was a long time ago that these things started but
not so long ago since they ended... do Chinese and Whites (Irish, French and
otherwise) or Jewish people deserve the same special treatment? Don't know..
ask them.. again my opinion is only to express the feelings of being black in
America not worldwide
Nick Jensen Why? What did you do to feel special,
and be treated special? And why is it my responsibility to cover it?
Rebecca Anything I said to Dwight Wingo was under the understanding that this was a debate
on the subject at hand. And wasn't my intention to offend. He also said some
very offensive things. And OF COURSE it will piss some black people off. It was
a statement to open eyes. Once again. Why is it ok for black people to be
outwardly racist ( not all) to white people? And of course my love for you is
stronger than any disagreement.
Nick Jensen Nobody deserves special treatment for
being related to someone, regardless of what they went through, and they
certainly don't have a right to demand it from people that didn't do it to
them. On top of that, calling people racist for not giving you sp...See More
Rebecca Of course my love for you goes beyond a
debate Katie. And whatever I said to Dwight was under the understanding that we
are all adults and can have a debate without getting butt hurt. After all he
put t himself here. Did he not? this is one of the mos...See More
Katie @ nick...cuz I can and u r and I don't
like u..and u know ur doing a lot more than defending ur self... I'm done, later
DICK!!!
Nick Jensen Aren't we all grown up, now. Glad to see
we're all capable of a mature conversation without childish name calling.
Really proves your point when you resort to that.
